For all NYS hunters

[kotten]

This year was by far the worst hunting season I could remember. I believe the state has to do something to change the hunting regulations. This is a copy of the letter I sent to the DEC. I would like all feedback both good & bad about the letter. I want to get an idea what most hunters are willing to change in the regulations so I can go to these supposed public meetings & speak out. I am going to be posting this on many other websites to get as many feedbacks as I can. Please give me some input. Here it is:


To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Ken Otten & I own 220 acres of land in Otsego County. I also have control over another 215 acres that border me. In total there are 5 people that hunt on 435 acres. I am an avid hunter & would like to see a healthy deer herd with opportunities for everyone to enjoy. I am a big fan of the way Pennsylvania has restructured their hunting opportunities. I believe NYS can be a leader in this way also, but now is the time to start. But before I begin, I would like to commend you on your re-thinking of the hunting opportunities for the state of New York. I like some of the new ideas & would like to input some of my own. I know the DEC is getting a lot of input from all over the state between hunters, biologists, task forces, farmers & from anyone else that has an opinion. This writing is of my story & my suggestions. Some of my ideas may be good & some bad, but you can take from it what you will. I’ve been trying to implement a management system on my land to grow bigger bucks & have a healthier herd. I've shot some nice bucks over the years, but since doing some spare time taxidermy work, I have seen what the potential could be for the deer in my area. Three years ago I stopped shooting young bucks in favor of Does. Last year I initiated food plots on my property along with those shooting practices & this is what the result was. Three years ago, we had about 35 to 40 deer on the land. This was a combination of bucks & Does that we saw in the fields during the summer & winter months. After the food plots were in, we had the same number of deer but only 2 bucks. They were a year and a half 5-pointer and a year and a half 6-pionter. They were there in the summer & stayed during the hunting season. Unfortunately, they were both shot by neighboring farms during the gun season. A two and a half 8-pointer came in and bred the does. We passed on shooting him to let him get bigger & he was there and alive until well after the season was over. Last year, we took 7 Does off the property. When the summer came, we still counted about the same number of deer (between 30 to 35) in the food plots. Of these there were 5 yearling bucks. One 6-pointer, three 4-pointers, & a spike. Throughout bow season we saw these bucks on a regular basis. Then what we believe was the 8-pointer we left last year returned & was breeding the Does. We saw him on a daily basis for about 2 weeks just prior to the gun season, then he left. As the gun season came in, the yearlings were still there but the 6-pointer had broken off both antlers and was barely legal as a buck & one of the 4-pointers had broken off one side. The broken horn 6-pointer stayed for the 1st week and then within a 24 hr timeframe left our property & was shot about 2 miles away. The other yearlings were also shot by neighboring farms. This past week we saw the spike breeding the Does. So far as of this writing, we shot 3 Does. One was a year and half Doe with 2 fawns. My problem with this scenario is that the state has procedures in place to control the Does but nothing to control the buck population. Each year, the new crop of bucks are being harvested & there is no carry over to let them get to an older age. It’s not a healthy herd when the year and a half spikes are doing the breeding. Unfortunately, I cannot control this. But the State can. I don’t have data to go on, but here’s what I think:

1. I think there should be antler restrictions of 3 or preferably 4 points to a side during the gun & muzzleloader seasons and possibly the archery season. This will let the little ones get a little older & force meat hunters to shoot Does to put meat in the freezer. This will increase the antler size & quantity of bucks while decreasing the herd for damage control. With an influx of larger bucks, the State can get more revenue out of the out of state license sales. Out of state residents would be more likely to come here if they thought they could get a trophy buck like in Illinois.
2. I’m not in favor of an Earn a buck program for NYS residents because I believe it would reduce the herd too much. I think it would work if you used the Earn a buck program for out of state residents. They would benefit by being able to take 2 deer with the one license while letting NYS residents get first chance at the bucks. This would bring in more out of state hunters while reducing the herd. The way the state has it now with the DMP permits can better control the Doe population.
3. Lower the big game hunting age to 13. At this age they are more inclined to take up the sport without being sidetracked by other social behaviors. I don’t believe there should be a special season for them, but they should be allowed to shoot any 1 deer of their choice without any restrictions. This should be done every year, as long as they have a junior license. This will get them hooked at an earlier age & keep them interested as long as they shoot something.
4. I don’t believe there should be an early muzzleloader season, even if it’s antler less only. I believe the early season shooting will spook the deer prior to the regular gun season. Also, from what I’ve been hearing around, a lot of people are talking that if there is an early muzzleloader season & they see a nice buck, they will shoot it & never report it. I think having people going into the woods with a firearm in the early season, is asking for trouble. What I would suggest is to reduce the regular gun season to 2 weeks with 3 weekends. Then implement a muzzleloader only season on the following week with all the regular season regulations & benefits carried over. You don’t have to have the regular season that long. Most of the deer are shot within the first week anyway. This would give the muzzleloaders their own week plus they could still use their unused DMP permits from the regular season. Also on this week the secondary rut would be on and their chances would be good to tag out on a good buck. By decreasing the cost of a muzzleloader license to $10, I believe you would get more state income by the increased number of sales. Hunters wouldn’t mind spending the extra money to extend their season.
5. I like the idea of opening the gun season on a Saturday & the bow season 2 weeks earlier. The only thing is that the period of the bow season between Oct. 1 & the 15th should be for antler less deer only. In this way the herd can be reduced & the bucks wouldn’t have bred them already. This period, as well as the rest of the early bow season, could be used to qualify for the Earn a buck program. This would give out of state residents a chance to fulfill their requirements early on. It would also increase the number of bow hunting sales.

This is how the season would work out in 2005:

Oct 1 – Oct 14 Early Archery (Antler less Deer only)
All Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Antler less only)
Non-Resident hunters can use for the Earn a buck program

Oct 15 – Nov 18 Early Archery (Either Sex) – with or without Antler restrictions?
All Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) – with or without restrictions?
Non Resident hunters can use for the Earn a buck program on Antler less Deer
Youth & Disabled Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Nov 19 – Dec 4 Regular Season (Antler Restrictions)
All resident Big Game license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
All resident Big Game license holders can take 1 Antler less deer with a DMP license
Non-Resident Big Game license holders can take 1 Antler less & 1 Buck with 3 or 4 points to a side (after the Earn a buck rules are fulfilled) – If the Antler less rule is fulfilled during Early Archery season, then only 1 Buck can be taken & no Doe
Youth & Disabled Big Game license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Dec 5 – Dec 11 Muzzleloader Season (Antler Restrictions)
All resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
All resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 Antler less deer with a DMP license if it is not used during the Regular Season
All Non-Resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
Youth & Disabled Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Dec 12 – Dec 18 Muzzleloader Season (continued) and Late Archery Season
All leftover tags are valid (Same rules apply from earlier seasons)

I hope some of this can be used to have a healthier Deer herd & to give the hunter’s of this state the opportunities and satisfaction they deserve. From what I have always been told is that the Deer belong to the State of New York & it falls upon you only to make these decisions. The buck herd needs to increase and there needs to be an age structure within it. Future generations along with my 2 sons are counting on you. Please do the right thing.

Thanking You,
Ken Otten

All opinions are welcome & no holding back.

[jb1buckmaster]

Comming from somebody that doesn't know you. I would say that you want to hunt trophy bucks on your properity.

The real problem is that you pass on a buck.. N' your neighbors shoot them anyways.

PA - made antler restrictions - because too many deer was being hit by motorists. The insurance companys lobbied and won ...

Too bad that you are mis- informed. It did not make the hunting better. Infact it made it worse. People are now shooting their doe's first. And waiting for the big one everyday after that.

Where I saw 60 deer by 10 AM. in the past. I only saw 3 deer all day - last year - the first day of Rifle season.

Again - I didn't see a single deer - this year until 10 AM. Opening day.

It was a large 10 point buck. It was limping. By the time you count the antlers - with no snow. The deer is gone! We also had a large 10 point go to my brother - it was also limping. By the time he counted the points. It was GONE!

The one was finally harvested - 2 miles away - 10 days later. Didn't hear anything more on the other one. Even though we saw it on the third day. It was still limping.

I would rather see the ethical harvesting of game animals - than suffering.

Problem now is in PA - there are too many seasons. Too many opportunities - for the slob hunters to go out and POACH a deer. They shoot a couple in archery season. A couple in the early muzzle loader season. A couple in rifle season. ANd then go back out after CHRISTMAS for Muzzle Loader. And you can use your buck tag for either sex in Muzzle loader season.

Where they shot 3 or 4 deer before . Now they are shooting 8 - 10!

If they do like PA - you can kiss your Deer goodbye

[kotten]

Thanks for replying. Not to get into an arguement, but if you know a guy is poaching, why don't you turn him in. someone did that to a guy by me a couple of years ago & they found 20 deer hanging in his basement. He'll never hunt again. I've posted this letter on many other boards & eveyone says the same thing about poachers. I don't know why anybody turns them in.

[jb1buckmaster]

When you live in a small town. It doesn't take long before you know who does all the shooting. Problem is - they know you too. If you turn them in - you also have to testify against them in court.

Usually even if they get convicted - they have relatives that can come to your house - anytime they want and retaliate against you.

The Game Wardens know who they are. If they really wanted to get them - they could. There is no such thing as Conservation Officers in PA.

They are Mobile Tax Collectors. You almost never see them - out of their vehicle. I heard they even made a law this year in PA. That you can't discharge a firearm - within 150 yards of a Conservation Officers vehicle.

Especially while they are stocking Phesants.

A really funny thing is - in a agricultural community is - people actually believe that poor people - poach deer. Are intitled to it - as long as they use the meat.

When in reality - they drive 4 wheel drive vehicles. Shoot much nicer guns than most people. Spend $100's of dollors on fuel - road hunting.
Spend $100's of dollors on ammo - because if they don't see it drop. They leave the area - in fear of getting caught. Let the game animal lay.

Some of them either work mininum wage jobs - or else refuse to work at all. People feel sorry for them. Get's to the point - of where it is a contest for them - to see how many deer they can shoot. They sometimes even give it away - after they shoot it. Just so they can keep hunting. I have a neighbor that has 3 Full Size freezers in their basement - full of deer meat. They hunt every day of the season - but never get anything. After the season is over - they show you the racks.

[Rckmaster]

What a shame, a darn shame. For you to write to this forum with the knowledge that your neighbor has a freezer full of illegal venison and you haven't done anything about it, is shameful. For you to rationalize in your mind that "nobody is going to do anything about it anyway" is a disgrace! If you aren't man enough to call and talk to your local game warden to make him aware of criminal activity in your area then at least do it anonymously. Unfortunately, people with your attitude don't do anything until it adversely affects them or their families. Then it is too late and they are the first ones to cry "why hasn't law enforcement done anything about this"? If you don't tell them or know for a fact that they know that a situation exists, then you shouldn't be complaining about them. You should be taking a look at yourself. Write a letter, make a phone call, do something about the problem.

[jb1buckmaster]

The guy has 9 kids. They all buy a hunting license - even for the two that is mentally retarded. Which is a skerry thought - them two with a loaded gun.

Then they buy doe tags - thats another 9 deer.

Then they buy bonus tags - thats another 9 deer.

Plus a hunting license - automatically becomes a deer license - in Muzzle Loader season - which means either sex.

So right there is 27 deer - atleast - how many freezers can you fill with 27 + deer a year. Means to being - maybe 3 people shot 27 + deer. What would you call it?

[Rckmaster]

Listen to you, now they got you making excuses for them breaking the law. You'll change your attitude when one of those poor retarded children fires a round through your living room window and scares the heck out of one of your family or worse (God forbid).

[kotten]

Thanks to all who offered their opinions on this matter. For those of you who read this thread & didn’t offer any opinion, you should be ashamed. Those who don’t say anything before things change are the first ones to complain when they do. After getting feedback from this & many other sites, this is what has come up. There has been a positive feed back on antler restrictions & for lowering the youth age to hunt. Not many have liked the idea of an early muzzleloader season or for shortening the regular gun season. What I would suggest then is to incorporate both seasons into one where you can use your muzzleloader tag during the regular season. NYS does not have that in effect now. Some other interesting opinions & feed back have come up. The first one has to do with poaching. It seems that the state is rampart with it. A lot of hunters from all over the state are complaining about it, but none are doing any thing about it. They said that the DEC should do something about this. There is an easy solution for this: REPORT IT! If that doesn’t work, then call the state police & report that there is a trespasser with a firearm on your property. I find that this works better than calling the DEC & if the people get caught and word gets around, I don’t think you will have any more problems. At some point, people have to start taking action to protect what they want. The second thing is that some people say that if they buy a license it is their right to shoot whatever they want. The thing that they have to remember is that hunting, like driving, is a privilege and not a right. The idea of hunting is a management tool to control the deer population. The state owns the herd & it is up to the hunters to keep it a healthy one. Third, most are saying that the herd is too small & that too many does have been shot. I spoke to a biologist & he said that to maintain a healthy deer population there should be about 11 deer per square mile. On agricultural areas, he said about 16 deer per square mile would be sufficient. NYS has a land area of 47,379 square miles. Of this there are many city & urban areas where deer would not exist. If you do the math for 11 deer / sq. mile, the herd count for the state would be 521,169. For 16 / sq. mile it would be 758,064. Even if the state is correct with a deer population over 900,000, it is overpopulated. I think a lot of people are missing the point. The idea is to have a healthy herd for now & for future generations and not for everyone to shoot anything just to say that they got something. Let’s get rid of that “If it’s brown, it’s down” attitude. If it’s meat your after, do everyone a favor & shoot a doe. Thanks.

[johnl]

Ken I'm pretty sure i saw this post on a differant forum like i said on that one you have some good points but too long antler restrictions can work but you have to keep the does in check too New York has lett way too many doe get shot this year they did cut back on doe tags but I'm afaid it is too little too late add in the coyotes and the problem worsens
Something needs to be done and i'm glad to see that you have put alot of thought into it now we all need to go to the meeting and use our voice maybe they will listen

[jb1buckmaster]

Here is a pretty good idea. Before you think about antler restrictions - go hunt Jefferson , Indiana, Armstrong or Butler Co in Pennsylvania.

Jefferson Co would probably be the closest thing to your NY deer hunting you can get.

Take 10 days off. Beginning with Bear Season the Monday before Thanksgiving and ending about the third day of Rifle season.

Your license will cost you about $100 a person + $25 or so for a bear license. It is good for the whole year - August 2005 - July 1, 2006

It entitles you to 1 spring turkey, 1 fall turkey, and 1 antlered deer. Plus it has the tag in it for your bear license.

I will take the time to show you around. Especially Game Lands 31, 28, and a few honey holes. Will take you places you could only dream about.

If you get a buck bigger than mine - I will agree with you 100% on antler restrictions. If you fail. You can go home and tell your buddies - that place is hunted out!

They say you got to walk a mile in another mans shoes - before you could understand how he feels. Well you got to hunt 100 miles with me to understand how I feel and what I know! Bring good boots - you are going to need them!

[jax042001]

We hunt the Northern Zone in NYS and have the same problem. If it has horns the locals shot it . In our area the woods are so big that they wood not be able to enforce.. Locals do what they want ,..Many shoot does illegally to put food on the table for their family ..the size of the rack makes no difference to them.....

The enforcement of the law in soem areas will be difficult