Over-bored for accuracy?

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Over-bored for accuracy?

Postby Kelsey » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:41 pm

Over-bored for accuracy?

I love guns. A very simple statement and when placed on my list of passions is only seconded by my wife and family. I look at, study, shoot, and talk about guns every chance I get. This is true with most hunters and enthusiasts. We enjoy all aspects of firearms and the related discussions, debates, and opinion trials which come with our association. Bringing up gun control is this crowd is usually met with strong words and raised hackles. I have found one of my best chances to review and discuss guns is during hunting season. I look forward to opening day of deer season for two reasons. The first is the chase of the animal and another chance to put “Ol’ Mossy Horns” on my gun room wall. The second is a chance to see up close what everyone else is hunting with. If you have ever bounced from deer camp to deer camp, you have seen it all. Gun shows don’t offer the selection of firearms you will see on opening day. Another benefit along with actually seeing the guns, you usually receive a running commentary, various opinions, reloading data, and other information a general retailer or catalog can’t or won’t tell you.

One of the things I have noticed and have come to understand, is we as hunters tend to come with firearms way too big for the game we seek. The increase in popularity of short magnums has all but fueled a hunter’s need for more firepower. In our desire to hunt with the next popular cartridge, we have forgotten what it is we are actually shooting at. Big Bores have their place, but they serve to no advantage when shooting deer. Please do not misunderstand, I do not condemn excess firepower. In fact, I prefer it to being underpowered. Unfortunately, while some have firepower to spare, accuracy is often left short. Some of the classic statements I have heard in camp is “I have it boresighted”, “The guy at the store said it was ready to go hunting” and my personal favorite “I didn’t have time to shoot it yet, but it’s big enough to kill anything”.

I am recalling every deer I have ever shot or helped shoot or helped clean or seen in camp, or seen along the road. I cannot think of any that were wider across the shoulders than 24 inches. Likewise, I cannot think of a single gun that is “big enough to kill anything” without the benefit of accuracy. Deer are relatively thin-skinned animals with a thin, sleek body. Contrary to popular belief, they do not require a huge amount of muzzle energy to stop. Bore size and Ft/lbs cannot make up for the benefits of an accurate first shot. Most of today’s larger calibers are grossly oversized for deer hunting. I have used a .270 for years and found it be extremely effective. In almost every case, the bullet has past completely through the animal and in almost every case, death was instantaneous. This is not due to the size of ball which passed through the animal, but where the ball past through the animal. A .416 Rigby would have done no better.

Do not get me wrong. I love big bore cannons and am guilty of using them for smaller game. My personal favorite is “Betty Lou”. Betty Lou is a Weatherby Accumark in 30-378 mounted with a Leupold Vari-X III 6.5-20x40mm scope. Extremely accurate and powerful at long distances, the 30-378 cartridge looks more like a 220 swift on steroid. I took Betty Lou on my first hunt in the Bob Marshall wilderness for elk and deer. Whenever you are packing horses in, weight is at a premium so only one gun is allowed. I decided to use the most powerful gun I had on inventory. There are two reasons for my call to use the big bore. The first being elk are large animals with thick hide and a notorious reputation for toughness. I wanted to ensure I had enough ballistic firepower to stop an elk on the first shot with a well-placed bullet. A well-placed .270 would have probably worked just fine. The second reason is the size of bear that inhabits the Bob Marshall. Just the year prior to our adventure, a young hunter was ambushed and killed by a large Grizzly while cleaning his elk and I was not inclined to take chances. At the entrance to Yellowstone, they sell little bells to hang on your pack. The sound is supposed to ward off grizzlies. The big joke at the bar at the entrance to Yellowstone is how to identify a grizzly bear by the number of bells in his poop. Betty Lou was coming, no question.

On about the seventh day in, our party spotted a large whitetail buck. The rut was in full and bucks were plentiful so the decision was made to not shoot deer until we had elk hanging on the meat pole, however this wasn’t one to pass up. After two missed shots by members of our party, the deer was on a dead run uphill heading for the cover of timber. I took aim, lead enough to compensate for his speed, squeezed the trigger, and turned Betty Lou loose with all her furry. I my scope, I saw the deer drop like a bad habit. From behind I could here my dad laughing and yelling; “Betty Lou has spoken!” It was a highlight of my trip, but the shot would have been just as potent if I had used my old .270. I give all credit for a successful hit to the months of range time I spend practicing accuracy from all positions and conditions not the amount of firepower I was carrying.

So what is the best rifle for hunting deer? Obviously, by my own experiences, a big bore is effective however, the power is wasted on smaller bodied animals and can result in severe damage to edible meat. This question has as many correct answers as it does incorrect ones and has been argued by every hunter with an opinion. My personal choice is the .270 or smaller. The number of deer taken with a 30-30 will never be known, but it ranks as one of the most productive rounds ever produced. The 30-06 is another well-known caliber that, when loaded with lighter loads can be appropriate for deer hunting. Arguments can be made as well for .280, .260, 308, .243, 7mm-08, .257 Roberts, and countless others.

Whatever you choose to use in the mountains is your personal choice. Magnums have their advantages, but they do not compensate for an accurately place bullet. All the muzzle velocity and Ft/lbs of energy in the world mean squat if the bullet doesn’t come in contact with the animal or worse hits a non-lethal area.
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Postby FUR-BANG » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:12 pm

Caliber Velocity 300yds Energy 300yds Trajectory 300yds

.270 winchester--------2416-----------------1685------------------ -10.7

7mm winchester-------2533-----------------2136------------------ -10.0

I respect your choice in the .270 but the 7mm has the same trajectory
as the .270 and gives you another 117 ft.per sec. and another 451 ft.lbs
of energy. So, the negetives of the bigger caliber are not a factor when the 7mm is concidered.

I believe that you must always concider the energy that the bullet has when it impacts the target. If that impact is in a less lethal area such as the lower part of the lungs or abdomain the velocity and mass of the bullet becomes a large factor. With the entry of the bullet comes air pressure which does an amazing amount of damage after the bullet has passed through. Having all of the available velocity and energy but not all of the drop in trajectory that the larger calibers are plagued with should be the deciding factors in choosing a rifle for Deer hunting.

Where you hunt should be the first factor--if you hunt forest/swamp where there is enough cover for a closer shot, a well placed smaller caliber rifle will be fine.
If you hunt open plains/hills where a long shot it most likely you should shoot a larger caliber rifle with more energy to combat the problems with wind sheer and distance.
I think that one should use .270 to 30-06 for Deer and the 300 to 338 for larger thicker skinned animals such as Elk. Anything over the 338 seems to offset the energy/trajectory-drop ratio. If I had to own just one rifle it would probably be the 338 ultra mag. and I would light load for Deer.

Just my experiance and preferance :D :!:
Hey looser,pick-up yer trash...yer mommy aint out here!!
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nice stats.

Postby carnivore » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:23 am

furbang I've been thinking that a 270 might be my next purchase but if your stats. are accurate then you've just sold another 7mm.-GOOD INFO
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big bore

Postby carnivore » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:42 am

I think when the money is right someday I'll own a 50cal. A friend of mine says he has a friend that killed a whitetail in northern Mo. at 1200yds which I don't really care to do, but I would like to shoot a whitetail someday and when i walk up to admire my trophy it would be real convenient to find that the vacuum from the exit just sucked the gut pile right out of the animal.
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Postby grizz » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:48 am

I have hunted whitetails since i was a wee lad and am now 45 years old and i started with a 12 ga. and slugs ,that is possibly why i hunt with a big bore rifle ; i use a 45-70 marlin guide gun. When i was younger i shot a 12 point buck with well placed shot to the heart area. The deer dropped and i walked up to it eventually and was breaking out my buck to gut the deer when it jumped up with a whole in its side bleeding and ran . I trailed it for about 3 miles till it came to a pinninsula and jumped into the river and escaped, since then i vowed never to use a small cal. rifle. I am not bragging but i am an excellent shot i go to the range from once to three times a week and i shoot open iron sites only, quite possibly i just like the sound of the big bore barking off, anyway to me its not just about the hunt theres something in the chemistry with the gun you are using also.however next year i may step all the way down to a .308 possibly in a older browning. :D
DEER HUNTIN BUMS im an old buck hunter and im not to fast,one more year is what i tink i'll last.till the next season when dat deer huntin comes. i'll be right der wit my deer huntin bums.
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Postby grizz » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:35 pm

went to the range earlier we were shooting brit .303, 44cal.rifle.a 44 taurus revolver and a 45-70,while we were there 3 guys came in to scope in there 30-06 rifle's and one guy had a small cal. rifle. I also help bore site rifle's for the gun club and i just thought i'd mention the ratio is at least 3 bigbore rifles to every smallbore.I guess people ;even if they shoot quite well want to make sure they kill what they hit.I know these people and most of them are at least fairly sufficient in shooting.
DEER HUNTIN BUMS im an old buck hunter and im not to fast,one more year is what i tink i'll last.till the next season when dat deer huntin comes. i'll be right der wit my deer huntin bums.
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Postby quigleysharps4570 » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:20 pm

I also shoot a 45-70. With cast bullets you can eat right up to the hole.
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Postby grizz » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:29 pm

I have to admit i use only store bought bullets but will be loading my own soon, im using a copper jacket with a partial soft tip hollow point fedral for deer this year.
DEER HUNTIN BUMS im an old buck hunter and im not to fast,one more year is what i tink i'll last.till the next season when dat deer huntin comes. i'll be right der wit my deer huntin bums.
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Emotional subject !!!

Postby Dcolwill » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:28 am

I agree with the first post almost totally. Accuracy is the key to a quick humane kill no matter what you are shooting. When I was in highschool I ran a trapline and was blessed to be able to walk out my back door with a Remington Nylon 66 .22 and hunt nearly everything.

The .22 was not legal for deer hunting, but I always felt every deer I ever missed would have been dead and good eating if I could have been using my .22.

I AM NOT SAYING MAKE .22's LEGAL FOR DEER. They won't penetrate a shoulder and there would be far too many wounded deer because of slightly misplaced shots. The key was that the gun fit me, I could hit dimes every time at 40 yards, and the fast action with no noticeable recoil meant on a running target I could very quickly acquire the target, swing through the running animal, and shoot bursts of 3 rounds as the barrel passed the animal. This technique allowed me to take many running fox, and coyote.

If it was legal and I jumped a deer, with that .22 I could have put several rounded in the heart and lung area within 3 seconds. ONLY BECAUSE I HAD CONFDENCE IN MY WEAPON AND IT FIT ME WELL.

My deer gun of choice is the .270 because the inexpensive shells have incredibly flat trajectory with 130 grain bullets. The only thing I don't understand on the original post was "ALMOST all were pass through shots". I hit a deer once in the front shoulder while running towards me and the bullet fully expanded, made hamburger of the lung and stomach area and unfortunately made hamburger of the opposite rear quarter before exiting after demolishing the rear :shock: hip bone. Where could he possibly ever have hit a deer with a .270 and NOT got a full pass through.

I took many deer with my .270 and later with a Marlin 30-30, but I missed a few running deer because #1 that's a tough target and #2 the recoil takes your muzzle so far off the animal, that you lose time bringing the barrel back down for the next shot. Even if the gun held 14 bullets like my .22 there would be no way to let that much lead fly within 4 seconds.

Didn't mean to get so far off track. What I really wanted to emphasize is being confident in your weapon of choice, having it fit you well so you can quickly site on target without fighting to reposition the barrel after it's on your shoulder, and KNOWING where the bullet goes based on the site picture in front of you is MOST IMPORTANT.
My eyes focus forward like all predators so I know I was born to hunt.
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Postby Kelsey » Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:38 am

Great info guys! Fur bang, that was an excellent reply. I will have to ammend my previous statements.
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Postby Don Fischer » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:32 pm

Can anyone tell me what a 7mm Winchester is? Maybe one of those new short magnums?[/quote]
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the weatherby 30-378

Postby huntrsparadise » Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:16 pm

As for one of the first posts I think that this cal has it over all is 30-378 Weatherby you can use for those tough saskatchewan whitetails moose elk most bears and still maintain accuracy an be accurate up to 500 yds what do want from your gun. ill tell one thing i havent ever had to track my deer more than 75 yds. i want a hard hitting bullet that provides a clean kill as well accurate as hell this cal does it all i would chalange anyone to find a more versatile for big gane. PLEASE RESPOND


thanks steve
I can make your whitetail dreams come true
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Postby DocHolladay » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:05 pm

30-06. you can hunt anything you want with it.
Curiosity killed the cat, but I was a suspect for a while......
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Postby Don Fischer » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:42 pm

I'ed still like to know what a 7mm Win. is. That opening post was great but I'm not one to worry about grizzley bear's I'm not hunting. I lived in Montana a number of year's and have hiked into the Bob Marshall Area, into the South Fork of the Flathead, the North Fork of the Flathead. Also lived in Alaska several year's and have hiked into the Portage area and into the Chugach, the Brook's and severqal other area's, usually fishing, and after the initial awe wore off, never felt the need to even carry a rifle while fishing. Hunting, I've carried a number of different cartridge's up to the 338 Win Mag but have never felt the need for anything more powerfull than a 308 Win.

Most people that have trouble with bear's do so for a reason, granted sometime's not of their own making, but bear's don't run around looking for people to eat! Therefor I reject the idea of carrying a cartridge big enough for bear, but would certainly carry something larger than my 25-06. Concider that if you do have unexpected trouble with a bear, it will be at close quarter's and your magnum may well blow apart your bullet. Close up I would prefer a 280 Rem with a 160 or 175 gr bullet to a 300 mag with a 165 or even 180 gr bullet.

Under those condition's there's a wealth or cartridge's starting with the 6.5x55 on up that would suffice for deer yet still give you sufficient power for a rare bear not being hunted. None of them, for me, would be a magnum, nor larger than a 30 cal.

When hunting deer, I really do think a good handling non-magnum cartridge is much more plesant to shoot and carry; I also shoot them better as I'm really not that crazy about recoil.

The delimma we have is that we have a huge selection of cartridge's, overlapping in ability, that are suitable for game up to even elk when used with the proper bullet's. That would start with the 6.5's. Take out elk and we can start with 25 cal. Although I know that a great number of deer have been taken with the 24'S, I'm not a fan of them, the problem being a lack of bullet's in the 120 gr class. Yes I know they work but so will a 22 rimfire if properly used.

My choice for deer would depend on area:
Wood's- a cartridge suitable to something like the mod660 Rem. I have a
mod 660 rem in 308 w/ 2 3/4x Redfield widefield.

Open country- I like my 25-06 w/117gr bullet's or my 6.5-06 w/3x9x and
129gr bullet's.

Into country w/ big bear's- I'ed go with a 280 Rem w/4x and use 160 gr
bullet's
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Postby Kelsey » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:25 pm

Steve-

Being a user of the the 30-378 I have to admit, there would be very little you would be able to not hunt with this gun, but remember, a good clean kill is more the result of bullet placement than it is of caliber unless of course your going to be using the 50 caliber mentioned in the replys. :wink:



Kelsey
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