The real reason for Iraq.

[RICHARDCatdaddy]

This makes you feel bad for the innocent kids in a combat zone.I took it in Southern Iraq.

[SuperJ1975]

[ironhead]

Excellent pic,,,you guys have done a hell of a job over there. Just got word right after Christmas, my cousin is headed to Afghanastan this time, 4th tour. He is currently in Ft. Hood awaiting deployment.

[RICHARDCatdaddy]

Thanks.Iraq, Afganistan,Somilia abd Bosnia.

[ironhead]

The cousin was also a Ranger, he did
Panama
Persian Gulf I (got out and went to college and re-upped)
now going for tour #4 in PG 2 now is a Major coming up for Lt. Colonel next year.

[NYBuckhunter]

If thats what Iraq is about, then why arent we getting any of the oil? That argument is a distraction commonly used by those who oppose the war and twist the truth to support their opinions. Everyone seems to forget about all of the UN resolutions that Hussein broke, or the oil for food program that was being taken advantage of, how about the torturous murdering regime that put a quick end to any inside opposition. Yep, it was about oil....

[Tenpoint]

Here we go....another hot topic, bound for lots of controversy.

Ok, NY, enlighten us. What is it about then? If you don't think oil was/is a significant factor, you are kidding yourself.

Tenpoint

[RICHARDCatdaddy]

I just got stir the pot with a BIG STICK.

[Bowhunters]

How about the fact that we don't get our oil from Iraq, other countries might but we don't.

We get about 40% of the crude we use from drilling here in the U.S., the rest is bought from other countries. Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Nigeria, Venezuela.

How about the fact that no Iraqi crude has been used by our U.S. military in the war in Iraq or Afghanistan.

How about the fact that the $50Billion dollars in Iraqi money that has sat in U.S. banks from back early in Husseins regeim, even 20-40 years ago still sits in those banks today and the govt hasn't touched a penny of it.

How about the fact that all the fuel that our military has used over there this entire time has been bought from those countries I mentioned above and refined here in the U.S. and then shipped back over there for the military to use by tanker ships.

How about all those liberals that said back when the Iraqi war started that this was just being done so the U.S. govt could go militarize the Iraqi oil fields and take their crude oil by force?

Hmmmm? If that happened, I must have missed it.

LOL

[SuperJ1975]

[/img]

[Tenpoint]

What is it about then?
Tenpoint

All interesting "Facts", but what about the question?

Tenpoint

[NYBuckhunter]

Here we go....another hot topic, bound for lots of controversy.

Ok, NY, enlighten us. What is it about then? If you don't think oil was/is a significant factor, you are kidding yourself.

Tenpoint

Re-read my post Ten, I explained it in there. Im not saying that oil isnt a factor in anything that goes on over in that part of the world, of course it is, but it is not the only reason, or the major reason for that matter, we went into Iraq.

[nissen121523]

SuperJ1975.... Your ability to find pictures on the internet and post them as your opinion is very amusing. [/quote]

[NYBuckhunter]

[/img]

Cute cartoon....did you pull that from the NY Times?

[nissen121523]

Watch national geographic's movie, "In Shock and Awe." It's actually incredible the precatuions we took to try and avoid killing civilians and in which case, we were extremely successful at doing. The sad part is, it's war. Civilians are going to be stuck in the middle regardless. It's inevitable.

[NYBuckhunter]

Watch national geographic's movie, "In Shock and Awe." It's actually incredible the precatuions we took to try and avoid killing civilians and in which case, we were extremely successful at doing. The sad part is, it's war. Civilians are going to be stuck in the middle regardless. It's inevitable.

Well, when the opponent puts civilians in military bunkers, installations and insurgents set up shop inside of schools, mosques, homes, backyards, etc etc, it puts civilians in the line of fire.

[nissen121523]

Oil has very little to do with the war. If you want to talk about oil, lets talk about the democrats and their refusal to drill off our coast lines. They're perfectly content with the domestic drilling we all ready have but can't seem to figure out that maybe we should start doing some more drilling of our own. Then agin, Mr. Obama, as he stated when campaigning, will "consider" expanding our drilling. How about we just do it.

[Tenpoint]

What is it about then?
Tenpoint

Still waiting for a response....anyone???
Tenpoint

[RICHARDCatdaddy]

No oil from Iraq is good oil.

[Bowhunters]

Whether its the lies that we went over there to take their oil or the question of WMD's/weapons of mass destruction or that the war with Iraq was soley started just so Cheney's stock in Halliburton would go up in price is equally laughable to anyone that seeks reality.

I was in the military for quite a while and then got a job for the govt in a DOD civilian position and as anyone here that has served will tell you, no one in the military wants to go to war but we in the U.S.A. have over the decades made ourselves to be the worlds police. Like it or not that is a fact, and we placed that role on ourselves as a country, by peaceable people of other countries we are seen as a beacon of hope but by the troublemakers, terrorists, insurgents of the world we are no doubt hated and reviled.

There is no such thing as a war of convienience, you either go in to win or you should stay home because just going in and doing the convienient things and by this rule and that rule and because politics are used is how Vietnam's get to happen.

Were there WMD's there in Iraq? Not when the troops got there this time but the inspectors and even the CIA said at one time there was evidence of WMD's and the fact that Hussein killed thousands of Kurds in Northern Iraq with chemical weapons says he had some type of WMD at least at one time. Also lets not forget at one time (1980's or 90's) that Israeli's Air Force destroyed a nuclear enrichment plant in Iraq that was believed to be ready to go on line to enrich weapons grade uraniium.

So its not like there were no reasons to go there and the CIA and Bush just made everything up, they may had add libbed here and there to 'add sauce to the goods' for why the war should start but even back before Vietnam a democrat president (LBJ) also did some of that (see gulf of Tonkin incident) so Bush is hardly the first president to lie or stretch the truth to make war.

Some might argue why not Africa instead of Iraq but there are issues across many areas of the entire continent of Africa and Iraq was probably seen as a much easier war to win but that is speculation on my part.


Every death in war is tragic, no one but those that have served and their families know how true that is but how many people died in Vietnam vs how many have died in Iraq and Afghanistan?

-

[NYBuckhunter]

What is it about then?
Tenpoint

Still waiting for a response....anyone???
Tenpoint

Again....Everyone seems to forget about all of the UN resolutions that Hussein broke, or the oil for food program that was being taken advantage of, how about the torturous murdering regime that put a quick end to any inside opposition.

[KwackWacker]

Seeing as how the conversation has less to do with pictures and more to do with politics I'm moving the thread to the open forum. Duke it out there boys.

[buckbuster92]

I agree with Bowhunter. The US should not be the worlds police. We shouldn't put our soldiers lives on the line so that we can try to make the soonis and shiites and kurds and whatever else stop their sqabbling and killing each other. If i was president i would drop an iron curtain on our borders for as long as it takes to deport illegals and all the other riff-raff and traitors in our country. then i'd build up our military and national defense to top-notch level. then we'd get busy on our other internal problems. the rest of the world ain't our problem.

[Bowhunters]

I agree with Bowhunter. The US should not be the worlds police. We shouldn't put our soldiers lives on the line so that we can try to make the soonis and shiites and kurds and whatever else stop their sqabbling and killing each other. If i was president i would drop an iron curtain on our borders for as long as it takes to deport illegals and all the other riff-raff and traitors in our country. then i'd build up our military and national defense to top-notch level. then we'd get busy on our other internal problems. the rest of the world ain't our problem.

^ I wasn't really saying that we 'shouldn't or that we should' be the world police, I was simply stating it as a matter of fact that we are and that we are seen as that by lots of people around the world.

Whether it was part pride and part politics or whatever that got us here in this position we are there and barring a radical change like the one you mention where we basically close our nations doors to foreign activities (not going to happen) then we are pretty much stuck there for the time being. This current stock market drop would just be a bump in the road compaired to what would happen if the U.S.A. closed its borders and ceased trade, communication and cooperation with other countries and thats just one of the reasons why it would never be allowed to happen.

Whether the intent for our military being in Iraq and Afghanistan was done for the right reasons is just simple debate IMO, i'm sure most all the troops that have gone over there did it for all the right reasons.

Where I see our being the worlds police gets very ugly is how presidents have used the CIA, etc. to sneak into countries and spy, assasinate or attempt to assasinate leaders, etc including going into countries and simply stur the pot in regions that are already a powder keg just waiting to go off. Just about every president since probably the 60's has done something in some way or another and those activities often do little good and can actually cause worse problems than already exsist.

[nissen121523]

BuckBuster... you can say we should "build up our military and national defense to top-notch level" but i bet youre one of those people who would complain about us actually using either if it ever came down to it so, whats the point in that?

[Bowhunters]

^

Lets be careful not to flame anyone or turn it personal !

[NYBuckhunter]

One thing that we need to think about is that we already have the most "top notch" military in the world as it is. Name one other country that has the technology, air power, sea power and land power that we have. There is none. From about the middle of the cold war era until the end, Russia's military might was an illusion, they were no match for us, thats why the nuclear weapons became so prevalent. No other country today has the capability to help out with international disputes in a military way like we do, so the "world police" job is kind of up to us.

Another thing that people tend to forget to mention in conversations like this is that we arent just a bully, we are the single most generous nation in the world. Nobody donates money, food and supplies like the US. We are always the first country to jump up and come to people's rescue when they experience a natural disaster, etc.

I feel that we need to do something about the illegal immigration problem we have in this country, and we need to do it soon, but we cant ignore the international scene. We have tried isolationism before, and where did that get us? Remember Peal Harbor, and 9-11 (in a way). We tried to ignore alot of what was going on before WW2, and it got us attacked. We had the chance to get rid of Al Queda in the years before 9-11, and we chose not to get involved and that got us attacked. We can not be passive about these things, it would turn around and bite us in the end.

[RICHARDCatdaddy]

Dang,i started a mess here,without meaning to do all this.But some interesting and valid points have come to light also so maybe this was a good thing after all.

[SuperJ1975]

All the different views are amusing. We have been in Iraq so long, no one even knows what its about. Doesn't really matter why you are in Iraq when you are actually in Iraq. BTW, the enlistment age was raised to age 42.

[NYBuckhunter]

How are the views "amusing"? How can you say that nobody knows what it is about? Not all of us have limited memories or pick and choose issues to focus on based on what the media says. The reasons for going into Iraq were clearly stated for months before it began. If you choose to listen to the media and go along with the sensationalism that they feed you, then thats your choice, but it doesnt make it true.

[NYBuckhunter]

Dang,i started a mess here,without meaning to do all this.But some interesting and valid points have come to light also so maybe this was a good thing after all.

Its not a mess, debate and discussion are a healthy part of life and should be exercised regularly.

[SuperJ1975]

I like this photo, I took this picture while "fighting for freedom" in Iraq.

Most people are free there now, except women, thats a whole different subject...

But anyway it is a picture of where we consolidated all of Saddam Hussians weapons of mass distruction (WMD's) that we have found to date; All zero (0) of them.

This includes: zero (0) Chemical weapons
zero (0) Biological weapons
zre0 (0) Nuclear weapons

[Bowhunters]

I like this photo, I took this picture while "fighting for freedom" in Iraq.

Most people are free there now, except women, thats a whole different subject...

But anyway it is a picture of where we consolidated all of Saddam Hussians weapons of mass distruction (WMD's) that we have found to date; All zero (0) of them.

This includes: zero (0) Chemical weapons
zero (0) Biological weapons
zre0 (0) Nuclear weapons

But Hussein did have WMD's at one time 'he used them', whether he used all that he had or shipped them to Syria or Iran in the days before the invasion of Iraq is still a subject of debate.

Back during battles in Desert Storm sensors tripped off on occasions that indicated Chemical or Biological agents had been released and documented deaths of troops after they came back home from mysterious illnesses were released in documents by the press and statements of those illnesses were even made by troops themselves.

So based on those things alone, some would say it was logical to assume that at least some chemical agent WMD's would have been found being stored somewhere in Iraq.

[buckbuster92]

[quote="nissen121523"] BuckBuster... you can say we should "build up our military and national defense to top-notch level" but i bet youre one of those people who would complain about us actually using either if it ever came down to it so, whats the point in that? [/quote]

You know what? I supported the war in Afghanistan and Iraq (and still do for that matter) and i think we should have already leveled Iran and North Korea. I also would be in favor of putting Russia in its place for aiding and abetting terrorism. At the slightest act of agression by a foreign country i think we should do a quick bombing run on its capitol city. So put that in your pipe and smoke it! don't be so quick to say stuff like that mr. nissen!

[Tenpoint]

NY, Bowhunters. I like yo guys, I really do. But man, if you bought this WMD garbage, you got taken hook, line and sinker (in my opinion).

And as far as "Iraqi Freedom", Hussain attacked his people when....1992? And the "coalition of the willing" get there in ....2003? Ya, for the people....right.

And maybe someone can explain to me why the US has spent hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars on the "war" in Iraq and NOWHERE near that amount in Somalia, Rwanda, or any of the other countries where genocide is/was occuring, and way more innocent people have died. Oil maybe....na?

And maybe someone can explain to me what right the US had to invade Iraq in the first place? I'm no expert in international law, but something tells me it's probably not legal for one country to attack another country that poses no threat to you, especially when some of your closest allies and the UN reccomend not to do so.

"With great power comes great responsibility"....Spider Man's gramps.

Respectfully,
Tenpoint

[nissen121523]

Lol buckhunter. i wasnt exactly "attacking" you or "flaming" you. LOL but i like the response.

[SuperJ1975]

So based on those things alone, some would say it was logical to assume that at least some chemical agent WMD's would have been found being stored somewhere in Iraq.

We have rights and freedoms since we are US citizens. I have the right to talk about the war criminals who decided to invade iraq and call it "operation iraqi freedom" even though the people here are less free then when Saddam was in power. And you have the freedom to be ignorant and express your uneducated point of view.

Its a win-win situation for everyone! Except for the iraqis, but, whatever.

[Bowhunters]

^

Members were warned earlier in this thread not to flame or get personal in their posts.

I've found that anytime a person primarily just resorts to telling another that they are 'ignorant, dumb or stupid' without explaining to the other person 'why' they are wrong it does little more than show how weak their arguement really is.

[NYBuckhunter]

I unlocked the thread, as it has spurred some good debate. As far as the flaming goes, members who flame others or cant control the name calling will be delt with individually. Im sure we can all be grown ups here and discuss this without the name calling.

[NYBuckhunter]

NY, Bowhunters. I like yo guys, I really do. But man, if you bought this WMD garbage, you got taken hook, line and sinker (in my opinion).

And as far as "Iraqi Freedom", Hussain attacked his people when....1992? And the "coalition of the willing" get there in ....2003? Ya, for the people....right.

And maybe someone can explain to me why the US has spent hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars on the "war" in Iraq and NOWHERE near that amount in Somalia, Rwanda, or any of the other countries where genocide is/was occuring, and way more innocent people have died. Oil maybe....na?

And maybe someone can explain to me what right the US had to invade Iraq in the first place? I'm no expert in international law, but something tells me it's probably not legal for one country to attack another country that poses no threat to you, especially when some of your closest allies and the UN reccomend not to do so.

"With great power comes great responsibility"....Spider Man's gramps.

Respectfully,
Tenpoint

Ten, I dont believe I touched the WMD issue in my reply to you, and gave you plenty of other reasons why we went into Iraq. All of those reasons were completely current when we went in there, its all been proven. The only thing that we didnt find were the WMDs, but the torture rooms, mass graves, stashes of money traced to abuse of the oil for food program, etc were all found. As far as the WMD, that is an ongoing debate, we have footage of convoys of military trucks moving into Syria in the weeks before the war. What was on them? We may never know. Personally, I dont care too much about the WMD issue, the other reasons to go in were plenty to justify it.

In Somalia, etc, we were part of a UN force, and we all know how the UN deals with issues. The political climate was also a big factor in those situations, some of our leaders were not willing to do what should have been done and we learned lessons because of it.

In my opinion, the biggest mistakes we made (and continue to make) in Iraq are to let the war be run by politicians rather than the military.

[NYBuckhunter]

I like this photo, I took this picture while "fighting for freedom" in Iraq.

Most people are free there now, except women, thats a whole different subject...

But anyway it is a picture of where we consolidated all of Saddam Hussians weapons of mass distruction (WMD's) that we have found to date; All zero (0) of them.

This includes: zero (0) Chemical weapons
zero (0) Biological weapons
zre0 (0) Nuclear weapons

The WMD was not the main reason we went in there. The media has twisted things to appear that way though. Its a nice pic though.

[SuperJ1975]

Can some one PLEASE tell me the "Main", and "Good" reasons for invading Iraq. You can list them one by one, no need to explain them, just list a few to humor me. I am ignorant, please help me understand.

[NYBuckhunter]

Havent you been reading the posts other than the ones directed at you?

[nissen121523]

NYBuckHunters listed them over and over again. I'm not sure where the confusion still lies.

[SuperJ1975]

torture rooms, mass graves, stashes of money traced to abuse of the oil for food program

I guess it is easy to support a war for these "main" and "good" reasons as long as you aren't personally involved.

Enlistment age is still 42. If you are 42 or younger, and support the war, lets get with it people! Your country needs you to fight for freedom!

[NYBuckhunter]

Im not personally involved? Well seeing as I have 2 friends over there, 2 cousins and an uncle all currently in Iraq, Id say it effects me enough to make me really think about things before I form an opinion about them.

[nissen121523]

Um, thats a decision you make when you enlist? You dont sign up and act like you should never be used? That's the whole point in enlisting. You dont have a choice whether you agree with the war situation or not.

[SuperJ1975]

There are plenty of available positions here, grab some man and sign the paper. Once you get to iraq you will see what is really going on. You see it much differently from your couch.

[nissen121523]

Like i said. You arent the one who makes the decision to go to war. Therefore, accept the fact, BEFORE YOU ENLIST, that theres a chance youre ACTUALLY going to have to fight and theres a chance it might be for a reason you disagree with.

[SuperJ1975]

OK, Lets forget about why we invaded, because we have established that if there is a reason it isn't a good one.

What have we accomplished in Iraq?

PS: The enlistment age is still 42.