wolves

[buckbuster92]

Over the past couple of years wolf sightings have been becoming more frequent in this area, and just a couple weeks ago the DNR offered a reward for info leading to the arrest of a man who shot a wolf. The deer population in this part of the state is down, and many, including myself, believe that it is due, in part, to wolves. I would like to see wolves taken off the endangered or protected species list, or whatever list their on. "Experts" will say that wolves are harmless as long as you don't bother them. tell that to many people that have been eaten or attacked by wolves. I believe it should be legal to shoot wolves, but i would like to know what other hunters think about this issue. ???

[ironhead]

I know this will not be popular,,,but I believe there is a place for wolves in the wild, but, like everything else the numbers need to be controlled.

[Bowhunters]

I agree with Ironhead, if they are being released into an low human population area where wolves exsisted back in the 1800's then I don't have a big problem as long as their numbers are kept in check and they don't move into suburbs and start eating peoples cats and dogs and chasing kids waiting for a school bus.

I also recognise that reintroducing wolves into ranch or farm land is never going to be acceptable to cattlemen but from what i've read most if not all states that have reintroduced wolves are repaying them for any cattle that the wolves kill.

As far as the first question on 'Will wolves chase off deer?' i'd have to agree that it appears so, if the deer have vanished from a complete area of miles with in weeks of wolves being reintroduced I think it speaks for itself, the wolves have no doubt made some deer kills and the deer are being chased and they aren't used to that happening so its logical they would move on to another area at least temporarily. The only thing to hope for will be that the wolves move their pack to another area before next hunting season.

[Tenpoint]

I don't know for a fact, but I'm quite certain that the number of deer taken by wolves in Michigan (or any state/province) is insignificant compared to the number taken by hunters.

I also doubt that the number of wolf attacks on humans is significant in Michigan.

As for wolves chasing deer away, I don't buy that argument. Who's to say the wolves don't chase the deer into the area we hunt? If the wolves do not significantly affect the deer population (which I suspect is the case), then the deer still have to live somewhere. Regardless of whether there are wolves or not, the deer still need to go to good bedding and feeding areas, and go about their daily routines.

I am a hunter and a conservationist, someone who believes in the wise use, and conservation of our natural resources. If an animal is on an endangered species list, it's likely because it faces possible extrapation or extinction. No animal should be removed from an endangered species list if it truely needs protection from extripation or extinction.

That said, I recognise that it is important to protect ourselves and our ways of life, but we should try to do so in a way which conserves the world around us. Allowing the extripation of wolves in an area for our hunting benifits would be a shame, in my opinion.

Think of all that wolves represent. If you have an area that can accomodate a population of wolves, that is a great achievement in preserving a large tract of relatively undisturbed land; which is something I think all hunters can appreciate.

On this subject, I recommend a book by Aldo Leopold called "A Sand County Almanac".

Give it a read if you have not already. Ask for it for Christmas.

Tenpoint

[Bowhunters]

While its true that wolf attacks on humans is extreemly rare (they are normally shy of contact with humans) there have been a few cases including some wolves that repeatedly circled some adults walking in the Anchorage AK area a year or two ago that I remember reading about.

I was just pointing out that people don't want wolves around suburbs or other inhabited areas because it increases the possibility of such an incident and children are much less able to defend themselves and may be more prone to trying to run from a wolf which will tend to trigger their attack instinct.

[DocHolladay]

I look at it this way, the wolves, deer, elk, caribou, etc have all lived in unison until we started moving into their yards. Then we complain when they kill one of our pets or attack us. They are just doing what animals do and we need to realize that we arent at the top of the food chain like we believe.

The human race has been responsible for wiping out and almost wiping out numerous species of animals just so that we can have an article of clothing or a hat or a coat or some other fancy object. We have also tried to wipe out animals because we dont like them or they attack our livestock. Thanks to Teddy Roosevelt and some other famous and not so famous Americans, we are trying to keep all the animals that we have whether we like them or not. They are all beneficial to each other in one way or another.

[ironhead]

Amen brothers!

[buckbuster92]

humans are far far more important than wolves, or any wildlife for that matter. i'm not for wiping animals off the planet, but i think our government shouldn't be spending money to protect wolves, while more important things are going on. it seems to me that people are starting to view animals as superior to humans and are more concerned with animal rights than they are with the welfare of humans. and this ticks me off.

[Jimmy Koles]

I totaly agree with you. I was hunting up north this deer season and i saw 2 wolves and 1 deer in 3 days. it doesn't average out.

[BuckeyBuckhunter]

we as humans are predators
and if we are to have abundant game we have to get rid of opposing predators
now I personally don't have enough land to worry about it
but i know of people who kill hawks,falcons,wolves coyote....any other predator that will kill their prey
in return their land is great for hunting
so I don't know... yes wolves have their place in the unity of an ecosystem
but on the other hand,....... basically just a food chain issue
if I owned 100+ acres I would kill whatever I deemed fit on my land

[NYBuckhunter]

humans are far far more important than wolves, or any wildlife for that matter. i'm not for wiping animals off the planet, but i think our government shouldn't be spending money to protect wolves, while more important things are going on. it seems to me that people are starting to view animals as superior to humans and are more concerned with animal rights than they are with the welfare of humans. and this ticks me off.

Whether you realize it or not, we are all intertwined with animals of all varieties. The protection of wolves and other species is important, if the government and other groups didnt step in with the protection of wolves and many other species, humans would have wiped them off of the face of the earth long ago. If you want to turn this into a political debate, I can list off many more things that the government needs to do that cost us thousands of times more than it would to cut a wildlife protection program.

[buckbuster92]

If wolves ceased to exist my life would not be affected in one way, and i doubt yours would either. Name one reason why it would be bad for humans if wolves were extinct. I'd like to know what it is?

[buckbuster92]

Also, i agree that there are countless other government programs that need to be cut but right now were talking about wolves.

[NYBuckhunter]

Maybe not your life in particular, but they are part of the natural environment, and they play their role. Exterminating animals is not good for the environment period. In turn, it is not good for humans either. If you want an example, just take a look at deer populations in areas where natural predators dont exist. Deer populations go through the roof and many starve, become diseased, destroy the natural forage, etc. Face it, hunters alone cannot keep the deer population in check the way it needs to be over a large area. We need natural predators to do their jobs on deer and other animals as well or the population increases and becomes unhealthy.

As far as the other things that can be cut or done, I agree, we are talking about wolves, but the amount of money spent by the government on wolves in particular is pretty minuscule in comparison with other things that they need to do.

Also, you say "many" people have been attacked or eaten by wolves, I can find a total of less than 10 verifiable accounts since 1900 in North America that were attacks by wild wolves. I would have to say that is a pretty low number, and you can find more attacks by coyotes than that on this continent. I did not include attacks by captive wolves, as anyone aside from a zoo that keeps a captive wolf, deserves what they get in return for being so foolish, and it cant be counted in comparison to what we are talking about here.

I do believe that their numbers should be controlled in areas of high human population though.

[buckbuster92]

Ok...perhaps protecting wolves in an area where deer population is out of control is not beyond reason.

In my part of the country we often have hard winters which contributes to the death of quite a few deer. Reintroducing and protecting wolves in such an area is, in my mind, pretty much stupid. Many hunters are working to help out the deer herd, and when we have to work around the wolves as well as the winter, then it gets to be discouraging.

[NYBuckhunter]

I can understand it getting discouraging, but protecting wolves in areas where the deer hear isnt yet out of control is smart as well. Why let the herd get out of control in the first place? Besides, nature has a way of balancing itself out, if there are too many predators, the prey numbers go down, causing the predators to either leave to other areas where prey are more abundant, or they starve and die. Then, the prey numbers go back up again. We are currently dealing with similar things here in NY with coyotes and bear making a come back and affecting the deer herd, the numbers fluctuate with both from year to year. Its all part of hunting.

[Bowhunters]

From what i've read, Biologists say that CWD in deer, elk, etc. can be caused and more easily transferred through a herd of animals if they are over populated and get into a 'yarded up' conditions due to heavy snows, etc.

I'm not saying wolves would be the answer to help lowering overpopulations and maybe CWD everywhere but in some areas where there is an extreemly low human population it probably couldn't hurt.

[buckbuster92]

the deer herd in this area is struggling. it is far from out of control. and wolves aren't helping the problem.

[Tenpoint]

we as humans are predators
and if we are to have abundant game we have to get rid of opposing predators
now I personally don't have enough land to worry about it
but i know of people who kill hawks,falcons,wolves coyote....any other predator that will kill their prey
in return their land is great for hunting
so I don't know... yes wolves have their place in the unity of an ecosystem
but on the other hand,....... basically just a food chain issue
if I owned 100+ acres I would kill whatever I deemed fit on my land

No offense, but I totally disagree with your position and rational. If it's all about the abundant game, why don't you hunt at a game farm? I'll tell you why. Because you enjoy nature. You enjoy the outdoors. You enjoy being a part of a larger environment, a wild environment; an environment where clean rivers flow and people are few and far between. Wolves, because of thier requirement for large, undisturbed natural habitat symbolize all that we love about the great outdoors. If we can manage to protect them, we are also managing to protect vast areas of thier habitat where, among other things, deer will live.

Tenpoint

[Kaiser Hirsch]

This is ridiculous...get with the program guys...if the gov't put wolves in an area there is a reason, instead of complaining thats they are killing deer go read about wolves and their role in the ecosystems....we have meesed up the environment enough. I am not even gonna go further. I understand that everybody can voice their opinion....but...c'mon. Thats it
KH

[buckbuster92]

this garbage about us messing up the environment and intruding on the wolves as if the earth was created for animals only, and then humans came from another planet and messed things up, makes me SICK! God created the earth for the crown of His creation, precisely, humans. He told Adam to have dominion and rule over "every creeping thing, and every thing that moveth upon the face of the earth." And we act like animals are more important, or equal! Get real!!

[Tenpoint]

I'm not sure who locked this forum, but I have unlocked it. Sorry fellow mod/admin. This is an interesting debate, I'd like to see continue.

Let's just remember that it is important we don't attack the poster. Just post your opions. It's ok to disagree, but it's not ok to slander one another, not on this site.

Now touch gloves, let's have a good clean fight....

[Tenpoint]

buckbuster92,

I don't think anyone said wolves were more important than humans. And when God gave mankind dominion over the earth, I interpret that He left it in our hands to manage as best we can.

Tenpoint

[KwackWacker]

this garbage about us messing up the environment and intruding on the wolves as if the earth was created for animals only, and then humans came from another planet and messed things up, makes me SICK! God created the earth for the crown of His creation, precisely, humans. He told Adam to have dominion and rule over "every creeping thing, and every thing that moveth upon the face of the earth." And we act like animals are more important, or equal! Get real!!

No, it's not at all like you just put it. It's out of respect for God's creations that we should care for the animals and make sure they don't go extinct. Just because you can't hunt it or eat it doesn't mean it should run into the ground. When there is a huntable population then they will open a season and control the numbers better. Cases in point, the whitetailed deer's numbers in North America were less than a million at the turn of the 20th century. Today's estimates have their numbers somewhere close to 30 million. Reread that last part. The eastern wild turkey did not exist in most of the country less than 50 years ago. Today they're stronger and more wide spread than ever with an extremely huntable population. I'm not saying we should put animals first but taking the wolves out so that you can shoot a deer or two more a year is stretching it. Logic like that is what Anti hunters key in on to make their case against hunters.

[ironhead]

Predators are a safety check,,,to maintain healthy herds of huntable game, there must be predators. Man is not the only predator. Will populations go down with the introduction of another predator,,,yes, but the overall health of the herds should increase. Wolves will take out the sick and weak. The same arguments were given in Wyoming when wolves were re-introduced. Did ranchers loose some livestock,,yes,,did Elk and Deer populations crash NO. Have people really been affected,,not really. Not only will Wolfs controll the deer, but smaller prey will also be controlled, feral hogs, and most small game will also have a predator that most humans do not mess with. Wolves will not deplete the populations, they will become more mobile and leave an area if food becomes difficult to get. In an area with CWD it could be extremly beneficial to have a predator in the area that will take out the sick and weak year round. I think it is a fantastic idea to return your herd to health, before it spreads to other areas. The consequence of re-introducing wolves in your area,,,you very well could loose a tag or two,,but would you rather feed your kids an infected deer?

[buckbuster92]

no kidding but the point im trying to make is that in this area, we already have a huge population of coyotes, a hard winter and hunters. why do we need to start letting wolves loose?? its not like i want wolves and all predators to go extinct but i do believe that we should have the right to shoot them on our own property.

[BuckeyBuckhunter]

I am top of the food chain, and I excersie that right. And if that means eliminating competing predators then so be it. I currently do not have enough land or predators for it to be a problem. Deer are actually a bigger problem in my are do to auto accidents, but if there were predators onmy land killing my game.... just like poachers I would eliminate them.

[NYBuckhunter]

Im sorry to inform you, but the game that lives on your property is not "yours". It belongs to the people of the state.

[ironhead]

I would bet that the number of deer killed in a month by a pack is negligable, no more than 1-2 per week. A wolfs diet does not exist entirely on deer. I dont know the actual numbers, but i do know that if CWD was here in Mo. I would absoloutly stand behind the re-intro of wolfs here, yes even if it ment i would not be able to take any, just for the survival of the deer. Someday my kids or grandkids may be able to do what i enjoy so much. There is too much fear and lack of knowledge to panic about the deer being killed out. I may be telling my age, but i remember a time in Missouri that there was only a 1% success rate for deer hunting, there were NO turkey, they were re-introed.Now they are like vermin,,,they are everywhere. My Granddad was an Asst Mgr for a conservation area here, I have seen the good things that have been done here and i have explicit confidence in my conservation department. If thats what they thought needed to be,,,so be it.Thats all i have to say on this issue.

[Bowhunters]

I agree with all that NYBuckhunter and Ironhead said here, in Kansas the Fish and Game make it perfectly clear that farmers, ranchers, land owners do not own the game on their land but they are instead 'wards', another words while the game is on your lands you can hunt within the laws but not take any actions to unduely harm or exterminate wild game.

I was raised on a farm and I don't believe that wolves would work out in Missouri or here in Kansas or many states but I agree the best times for deer hunters are today. I also remember when I was in my teens plowing and disking fields on a tractor and seeing an occasional deer track in a drainage or edge of field and I know deer were extreemly scarce, you might see tracks once in a great while but you saw the actual deer rarely.

The best years of hunting are right now but people need to be able to give some room and respect to all the animals, ask yourself if you really need to take 5-6-7 deer every year and if you only get 1 or 2 then be happy that you can get out there and hunt and be thankfull that what you did get is enough.

Maybe its the part american indian in me but i'm a firm believer in 'take only what you need or can use and leave the rest' and be thankfull for what you do get.

[buckbuster92]

Thank you BuckeyBuckhunter. I share your point of view! If i feel it is necessary to kill an animal on my land, then i will. I'm not going to shoot animals just for the sake of shooting them, but i believe it is our right to do as we please on our private property.

NYbuckhunter and ironhead, i would also like to clarify the fact that although the animals on my private property are not "mine", neither do they belong to the government, hence, the government does not have the right to tell me whether i can shoot them or not. the decision remains up to the property holder.

[NYBuckhunter]

You are completely wrong on that, the state DNR is in charge of managing the state's natural resources, and all wild animals (game animals or not) fall under that. The laws put in place by your state DNR must be followed by you and every other person in the state. Being a land owner does not exempt you from the law.

BTW, i never said that the animals belong to the government.

[KwackWacker]

The animals don't belong to anybody. They are a renewable natural resource which is why they are managed by the Department of Natural Resources. The only way they would belong to a land owner would be if the landowner was to put up a high fence, in which case he would no longer be hunting free range animals. That practice is considered ranching in most states. And ranching is definitely not hunting.

[buckbuster92]

I agree. I never said that they belonged to anybody. The DNR might manage them but if an animal comes on my land, i will shoot it if i feel it is necessary. CASE CLOSED.

[KwackWacker]

I wouldn't necessarily call that a closed case. It might be your opinion or belief but that definitely doesn't solve anything. Shooting a protected animal is against the law. If you want to shoot them, that's your business and more than likely nobody will know any differently. But that changes you from a hunter to a poacher. And what a great example you're setting for the next generation of hunters. How about the non hunters, what kind of reputation are you giving hunters to those who don't oppose hunting but just don't participate in it themselves. Actions like yours will turn a non hunter into an anti-hunter quickly. And speaking of anti-hunters, you're just giving them more reason to protest our sport. See what you're not understanding is that your actions can affect hunters as a whole. Don't get me wrong, you shooting one wolf will not get hunting banned. But imagine if everybody did what you do. I'm guessing that our sport would suffer, all because you believe "if an animal comes on my land, i will shoot it if i feel it is necessary". And that's what I have a problem with. I live and hunt in Georgia. There's not a damn wolf in the wild within 700 miles of me. However, you and those like you who start killing them because "it's your land, you'll do as you please" could have an affect on my hunting privileges. And that's why I am asking you to respect the laws. I know you work hard for the land you have and it's your domain where nobody should tell you what to do. I just want you to know that what you do there has the potential to affect a whole lot of other people other than just you. It has the potential to affect everybody's privileges on this board, hell the whole hunting community, all 13 million of us in the U.S. And make no mistake, hunting is a privilege not a right. It can be taken away at the drop of a hat.

[NYBuckhunter]

Well said Kwack

[buckbuster92]

hmmm...i see your point...sorry for being so stupid.
i don't agree that hunting is a privilege however. i believe it is a God-given right for all people and if hunting is ever outlawed, i will be an outlaw.

[KwackWacker]

sorry for being so stupid

You weren't being stupid. You just weren't aware. We could all use a little more awareness as to how our actions affect others.

i believe it is a God-given right for all people and if hunting is ever outlawed, i will be an outlaw.

I feel the same way unfortunately the government sees it differently. If that ever happens I'll be stocking up on arrows. I figure the old stick and string will draw less attention to me.

[buckbuster92]

right on!

[ironhead]

Well said.

[Tenpoint]

As hunters, I think it is important we all obey the laws, but also to fight to ensure the laws are based on good wildlife management techniques and the conservation of our natural resources.

(Well put by the way Kwack.)

Tenpoint

[buckbuster92]

There is a good article about wolves and their effect on other animals and hunters in the Feb 09 issue of Outdoor Life...i recommend reading it.

[ironhead]

How about the Cliffs Notes version???

[buckbuster92]

whats that?

[KwackWacker]

Cliff's Notes were ( I don't even know if they're still around) summaries of books and novels. They included plot summaries, themes through the book and a bunch of other stuff. So let's say you had a report due on the novel A Tale of Two Cities and you didn't really want to read the whole book. Well you just slide on down to the ole book store, pick up a copy of the Cliff's Notes for the book. Read the notes, which were usually 50 or 60 pages long rather than the 1000 page novels and bam, you got yourself a report and know enough about the book to fake your way through. Not that I ever did anything like that . How about you Ironhead? You ever know anybody to do something like that?